Meat Eaters vs Vegetarians In Spirituality

46 Responses to “Meat Eaters vs Vegetarians In Spirituality”

1. Cath Lawson on July 7th, 2009 5:39 am
   

   Hi Akemi – Those descriptions are gross – I think I need to try to get a copy of that book, as I had also assumed that organic was better.

   I don’t eat a lot of meat – mostly chicken and also some fish. But it’s a struggle to find decent free range chicken, so often I use quorn.

   Last week, I detoxed and did feel a lot more healthy not eating meat. And eating certain foods makes me feel better mentally too.

   What did the book say about fish Akemi? Is that ok to eat?
2. Evita on July 7th, 2009 6:43 am
   

   Wow Akemi this article is outstanding!!!!!

   You have done such a thorough and honest review of the book, your own evolution and the whole vegetarian and spiritual movement in total. I was really, really blown away by how good it is!

   I too as you know LOVED the “Skinny Bitch” – it is an amazing, fun and short eye opener for all who read it and choose to be honest with themselves.

   In terms of spirituality, you nailed it when you said “meat eaters are either cruel or ignorant”. And I know that most people in this world are not cruel, so that only leaves ignorant. And all of us have been there at one point or another, but for me like for you when I learned all this change happened immediately. I did not whine and complain “but what are we going to eat?” I took action and it worked out beautifully! Today, going on almost 2 years, I have never felt better.

   Aside from the health part, I feel so good knowing that I am not contributing to these animals being so brutally raised and slaughtered.

   So are vegetarians more spiritual than meat eaters. Of course I think we cannot say yes for sure, as I am sure there are some vegetarians who do some cruel and unconscious things. Let us just take the ones who argue, name-call and exhibit violence when someone does not support their views.

   But in general, when we choose to say no more to being part of the killing and eating of the flesh of another, we do become more spiritual whether we recognize that right away or not. What always gets me to this day are pet lovers. How can you love and pamper your dog or cat (an animal) and eat another that was brutally treated. And of course some of them will say a “a dog or cat was not meant to be eaten, a cow was” – well to this I only can reply, let’s ask the people of India or China if they feel the same way… you know what I mean? It is all a matter of conditioning and following the masses. And we can just as easily step away and stop the unconscious patterns.

   Anyway great job again! I am stumbling this one!
3. Evita on July 7th, 2009 6:46 am
   

   Oh and one more thing about the fish that Cath Lawson asked above:

   Today’s fish are being depleted at alarming rates. Environmental estimates show that within a few decades all the fish supply may be gone.

   But if that wasn’t bad enough, ocean fish are highly polluted with contaminants, especially mercury. We are warned today not to overconsume fish for risk of mercury poisoning.

   Farm fish are treated no better, and they are usually given drugs, pesticides and even coloring is injected into them to make them healthy and proper looking.

   Nevermind the cruelty they face, usually suffocating on their own before they are killed.

   But an amazing movie on this is “A Delicate Balance” really, really worth it to see, as it discusses that and so much more where vegetarianism is concerned.
4. WL on July 7th, 2009 7:04 am
   

   Shocking but don’t always judge the produce by the labels… I eat a bit of everything as consciously as possible although I try to avoid meats. While there are negative sides to meat on the environment and health, the changes on the corporate level have to be made to alleviate the effects. While it’s impossible to ensure that the meats we eat came from humanely treated animals, one could say a prayer before eating them?

   While it is said that all things are ‘living’, I also don’t believe vegetarians are more spiritual than meat eaters. What if the vegatables were picked by prisoners on death row forced into slavery? I read somewhere that Dalai Lama eats meat regularly as part of his diet and no one question his enlightment. He tried to go vegetarian, but for health reasons could not. It is often pointed out that even as a vegetarian, we are indirectly responsible for the death of insects and animals throught the use of pesticides, and small creatures killed during harvest by the machinery used, etc. We are taught to repect and honor that life lost no matter how small and seemingly irrelevant. While we are encouraged to go vegetarian, It’s a matter of a personal choice.
5. akemi on July 7th, 2009 7:41 am
   

   Hi Cath,

   How did you do your detox? I’m curious. And now that you are cleaner, keep it up by eating well!

   “organic” is better, but unfortunately not perfect. I heard Europe has much better regulations, however.
   Chicken is as horrible to eat as red meat, the book says. Fish is tricky. It’s still animal protein, so the authors think it’s harder to digest than plant protein. Plus, we have polluted the ocean so much that fish are not clean. My personal take is, if you must eat fish, eat vegetarian fish. The lower the food chain, the safer.

   Btw I know you are concerned about the world’s starving population. Isn’t that great there is such a solid solution to this?

   Evita,

   Thank you for your comment about spiritual eating and also about the issue of fish. I think what I tried to say is, everything in life is spiritual, so eating is spiritual, and in this aspect of life, vegetarianism is more spiritually aligned. What people do in other aspects of their life is another issue.

   I have a question. So the ocean is polluted and fish is not safe to eat. How about sea vegetables? Are they no good, either?

   WL,

   Corporate and governmental level changes would be welcome, but we need to bring that change. We have the power to get them change. An effective way to do this is not buying meat, or at least conventionally raised animals’ meat. When they don’t sell, companies are forced to do something. As you say, it’s a personal choice.

   As I wrote in the article, I admit I am a killer (of bugs). We all are. But I think there is a difference — when I smash a mosquito, I’m protecting myself. Bugs don’t live so long anyway. Wide spread pesticide, on the other hand, are different issue. It kills the whole section of life, and the environment.

   You bring an important point about field laborers. In the US, many agricultural laborers are “illegal aliens” from Central and South America. So we put them down on one side, calling them illegal, and we benefit from their cheap labor on the other side.

   A prayer at the table is great. I always do it. Gratitude matters ^_^
6. Evita on July 7th, 2009 8:05 am
   

   Hi Akemi,

   With the sea vegetables it is a little bit different, because fish are technically the filters of the oceans, as they live and go about their daily life, they clean the waters. This is especially true for bottom dwelling fish.

   I personally had no idea when I first read all this where all this mercury came from, and was shocked to find out that to a huge degree it is from coal burning plants (and obviously other pollution too).

   So the worst fish to eat are big fish, due to the process of bioaccumulation they take the worst of the toxins over the years and bottom dwellers. Tuna for example, which so many people eat, is one of the worst.

   With sea vegetables, while they can be contaminated, just like land vegetables can, this is no where in comparison to what the fish hold.

   In fact some of them like spirullina or chlorella, which aren’t quite sea vegetables convert heavy metals in a detox like process. They do the same for us if we eat them

   But if you can (I think it is still available in PPV) see “A Delicate Balance” it is an eye opener like the SKinny Bitch and so scientifically referenced too.

   http://adelicatebalance.com.au/
   (It is $4.95 per view and so well worth it)
7. WL on July 7th, 2009 8:34 am
   

   Carnivores’ including pets’ diet involve mainly meats but I wonder how much it impact our environment… all in all, I agree that gratitude matters..
8. akemi on July 7th, 2009 6:35 pm
   

   Evita,
   Thank you for explaining about fish and sea vegs!

   WL,
   Ah, another good point, meat in pet foods. The whole food industry is pretty badly screwed, you know.
9. Paola on July 7th, 2009 9:37 pm
   

   Great article Akemi,

   I also became a vegetarian in January! And I feel so much better now.
   What you said about the energy is so true! When you eat an organic vegetable or fruit you’re feeding your body and cells with that live and healthy energy, unlike dead meat, you’re not only ingesting a dead animal and dead energy but also all the fear, suffering and toxins of that animal.

   The meat industry has become such an abusive and terrorific situation for animals, we do not honor them anymore for their sacrifice of dying for us. It’s horrible and denotes a great lack of respect towards other living and sentient beings.

   I totally agree with your idea of healthy meat eating practice, unfortunately what you describe is almost utopic nowadays.

   And in my experience meat eaters are ignorant but aware on a certain level of the reality of the industry but they just prefer to close their eyes and pretend that those horrible things don’t happen or they just don’t care. Also I have had a couple of experiences with some people that get angry at me because I’m vegetarian!!! eventhough I don’t talk about it all the time and I don’t try to convince them of becoming vegetarians.
   If they want to continue feeding this cruel industry it’s their decision but I really don’t get why they are so intolerant to someone who doesn’t want to be part of this anymore.

   But I’m grateful that more people are opening their eyes. I do think this kind of awareness is an important part for spirituality and I love animals and I really don’t think that they deserve to be treated like that, they are so much more that just a piece of meat.
10. Robin on July 7th, 2009 11:59 pm
    

    Hi Akemi – I have been mostly vegetarian for years and years – but have recently been experimenting with going “all the way”. I’m a bit backwards and forwards with it, mainly for social reasons. When I do eat meat, I can find myself feeling stodgy the next day. The book sounds great (in a dreadful sort of way).
11. WL on July 8th, 2009 6:54 am
    

    While it’s virtually impossible to avoid toxins hidden everywhere in food, clothings, utensils, home, buildings, etc., I try to practice detoxifying inside and outside of my body physically and energetically on regular basis just like taking bath or shower. I take epsom salt bath to help draw out toxins and drink mineral water to flush them out. I’m learning more about different ways to do this especially internally where it is often overlooked.
    I read that bentonite bath is a fast detoxification method but I haven’t tried it yet – “soak 2 to 4 pounds of bentonite clay in a flat container overnight to dissolve it. Then add this to a tub of water. With 2 pounds of bentonite you would soak one hour; with 4 pounds you would soak only about 30 minutes. The more bentonite used, the faster the detoxification”. Like salt bath, I think this process should include drinking a lot of water to stay hydrated.
12. akemi on July 8th, 2009 10:28 am
    

    Paola,

    “we do not honor them anymore for their sacrifice of dying for us. It’s horrible and denotes a great lack of respect towards other living and sentient beings.” I totally agree. Like I wrote in the article, when the animals are raised with love and killed with respect, I don’t condemn meat eating. There may still be nutritional difficulty, but energetically it’s good. But the current fact of meat industry is far from this.

    You point out a great point about meat eaters being intolerant about vegetarians. I have experienced it, too. You know, they are intolerant because, on the deep level, they know they are doing something wrong, but they don’t want to acknowledge it. That’s where the anger is coming from.

    Robin,

    When I was eating meat, I loved grass fed Australian beef. They taste and smell so much better than the grain fed American meat. I have a feeling grass fed cows are more healthy.
    The book is great read and it’s fast read, too.

    WL,

    I love taking a bath and bentonite bath sounds interesting! I guess natural hot spring would be good, too, if you have access to it.
    It’s true we are so surrounded with many toxins in our daily life. I’m learning more about this in Evita’s blog and it’s scary. (Click on her icon or link if you want to check her out.)
13. Hunter Nuttall on July 12th, 2009 4:37 pm
    

    Does this count as a synchronicity?

    Today I just happened to be thinking about the definition of a calorie: the energy needed to raise 1 gram of water by 1 degree Celsius. Then I was thinking about how what the U.S. calls a calorie is actually a kilocalorie. And then today I see this post where you refer to calories as kilocalories.

    See, my synchronicities have been quite weak lately.
14. akemi on July 12th, 2009 8:34 pm
    

    Hi Hunter,

    I’ve forgotten the definition of the calorie (thank you for reminding me) but I knew what Americans call “calorie” is really kilocalorie. The nutritional facts chart on foods say “kcal”. But I’ve figured that, if I say “kilocalorie” it surprises people.

    All I can say is George Washington really should have changed it to metric back then.

    Good luck with your synchronicities. I, too, need to scout out mine for my monthly gratitude journal…
15. RL David on July 27th, 2009 10:27 am
    

    Wow, I liked this post! I still ravenously eat meat but here’s why:

    1) I know who raises my meat. I live in a somewhat rural area of Wisconsin, which means that some of us double as small farmers. My neighbors butcher any meat I want–they’re involved from the time the cow passes out until the meat hits my freezer. Since they’re not corporate, they take the time to humanly put the animal down, because in these parts, we’re VERY conscious about animal cruelty.

    2) Meat makes me feel wonderful. I tend to be low on iron, and the only food that helps me is meat. Heck, I’ve tried vegetarian options, but I don’t get the same health benefits. Even with supplements, I feel groggy and cranky.

    3) I’m supporting our honest farmers. Instead of supporting corporate farms with my money, I can support Wisconsin growers and our humane attitude toward food. I’m also supporting my community by linking them with farmers who wouldn’t dare mess with their food.

    I understand that a meat boycott in other parts of the country is completely necessary, and I applaud you all for taking one for the team! However, I’m blessed with an alternative route

    Now I’m going to run to the next door garden to hand-pick my lunch <3
16. akemi on July 27th, 2009 11:19 am
    

    RL,
    So my dream farm where animals are raised and killed humanely still exists! That is cool. I feel hope.
    I’m not totally against meat eating habits. I certainly don’t want to push my vegetarian view to others. If it can be done right and in moderation, and it works with your health and lifestyle, that is fine ^_^
17. Stephen on October 10th, 2009 9:21 pm
    

    “Eating abused animals, then, is taking in the energy of abuse. And fear, anger, helplessness, and sickness of the animals. Obviously, this is no good.”

    I completely agree with this statement. In a very real sense a stressed animal is full of stress hormones and sick animals when eaten cannot result in health for the person who ate them.

    However, there is so much incomplete information out there. For one it is relatively easy to locate a somewhat local farmer who raises grass-fed, hormone and antibiotic free, naturally living and stress free animals if you take the time to look.

    It also should be noted that it takes almost exactly the same area of pasture to finish a steer as it does to grow the grain needed to finish the same steer in a feed lot. This is according to real farmers who are converting their land back to pasture. Thus grass fed meat does not require the billions of dollars in inefficient subsidies required by the grain industry (approx half of all grain goes to feedlot animals) and does not require the monoculture of intensive large scale grain farming that completely destroys habitat and kills all the animals that once lived there.

    Grass-fed meat is a completely different product nutritionally to feed lot meat. Grass-fed meat has less fat. Actually less than commercially raised skinless chicken thigh and is comparable to wild game. The very important ratio of omega 3 / omega 6 is where it should be, it’s 4 times higher in vitamin E, it contains CLA, a type of fat known to help fight cancer and is higher in antioxidants and B vitamins. Just to mention a few factors.

    Further, even if you’re vegetarian and you’re not eating locally then you need to consider the carbon emissions that result from transporting your food from where it was grown to where you are. This might be as far away as China. What’s more if you’ve ever grown your own food you would know at plants eat animals. They love blood and bone and they feed on the microscopic animals in the top soil. Which points to the close interconnection of all things. There is little distinction between plant and animal. We are all part of one interdependent system of energy exchange and love.

    On the spirituality note a mostly vegetarian diet may be great for one person thanks to their genetic heritage that has adapted to a high carbohydrate diet. For that person it will clear their mind, fill them with clean energy and generally help them to feel uplifted and well.

    However, if your genetic heritage derives from somewhere where it is well below freezing all the long winter in all likelihood your body is adapted to eating meat and fat. Trying to eat a high carbohydrate diet for that person will result in aberrant energy where the person is irritable, foggy headed, and generally feels heavy. Spirituality will not be advanced by adhering to a one piece fits all approach to nutrition. We are each as different on the inside as we are on the outside.

    All food has very precise effects on metabolism. For example calcium is a stimulator of the sympathetic nervous system while potassium is a stimulator of the parasympathetic nervous system. Therefore diet is a major contributor to balance or imbalance. If one individual is sympathetic nervous system dominant taking in calcium will ramp up their sympathetic nervous system even further and can result in all manner of apparently unexplainable health problems. The effect of diet is totally reliant on the individual and their individual needs.

    Thus you can see why I say that there is lots of incomplete information out there. There are alternatives to what has been popularized. Unfortunately we live in a time where information is cut down to small soundbites that are so filtered down to be almost misinformation.

    All the best,

    Stephen
18. akemi on October 11th, 2009 9:06 am
    

    Stephen,
    This is very interesting! I just finished writing a follow-up post for this (will be posted later today) and I emphasize the individual differences in it, too.
    I have a few questions — if a person’s metabolism is optimized for fat based diet, can’t he or she thrive on plant based fat like seeds, nuts, their butter, etc? Does it have to be animal based fat?

    Btw when I was eating meat, I could tell the difference of grain fed and grass fed beef by the smell. Grass fed beef smells like — well, grass, pasture — it reminded me of Australia where grass fed beef is the norm, as opposed to the US, where, until very recently, everyone loved the fatty grain fed beef. (One major streak house proudly put it right next to their logo — “Ruth Chris, the grain fed beef”) My American friends use to laugh when I said grass fed is better…
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20. Stephen on October 11th, 2009 7:13 pm
    

    Hey Akemi, I didn’t actually realize that this was an older post. Someone sent it to me on StumbleUpon.

    In regards to your question on fat. I should say that depending on the location’s climate people traditionally turned to fat and protein in winter when little plant based food was available. Though it does happen that nutritious vitamin C laden food such as Kale and Cabbage grows in winter just when it is needed. It goes to show that nature knows just what we need. I strongly believe in eating according to the season.

    To answer your question about plant based fat I would like to point out that farming has only been around for 10,000 years at most. Human evolution has spanned millions of years. Therefore, what we are adapted to is not what we currently see as readily available. I don’t see a hunter/gatherer tribe harvesting nuts and seeds (which may or may not be available where they live or in season) and then mass processing them using chemical, heat or mechanical methods in order to extract their oils.

    That’s just not going to happen when the necessary fat is readily available attached to the protein on a big animal in a single nutritional package. The thing to is that there is so much more than just say saturated fat, polyunsaturated fat and so forth. There are many types of fats within these categories and they all do different things and are handled by the body differently. There are even classifications within the saturated fat category such as between long chain, and medium and short chain fatty acids. Short and medium chain fatty acids such as from coconut oil are transported directly to the liver to be used as a fantastic source of energy. The saturated fat from coconut oil is also antiviral and anti-fungal among many other benefits.

    However, where my ancestors are from in Europe there were no coconuts. In fact the last great ice age ended just 11,000 years ago and lasted something like 25,000 years. During which time Europe was much different to what it is today. Imagine the treeless tundra and steppe of Mongolia and arctic desert. That is what conditions were like. Permafrost was all the way down to the latitude of central France. That means the ground was permanently frozen. The average temperature in winter was -19 C. These people were not eating fruit. They were eating like Mongolians and Eskimos. That is they are eating meat and animal fat and organs. They were killing the big animals that were around at the time and drying their meat for later.

    Because that is my heritage I use that as a guide for my diet. Living in Australia I eat game meat such as kangaroo (I am right now as I write this) and other humanely and naturally raised and killed animals. I eat lots of leafy greens and other non-starchy vegetables. If I eat grains I get very sick.

    So there I go again being long-winded. Essentially, you can see that I approach nutrition similarly to you. I am guided by my ethics and my deep sense of connection with everything else in the world including the dependent origination of my individual body.

    Stephen
21. Evita on October 12th, 2009 6:05 am
    

    Hi Akemi

    Reading some of the other comments, I am still inclined to recommend people to read “The Biology of Belief” by Dr. Bruce Lipton – he is one of the most renowned scientists on the planet today.

    I hear what people are saying about the need for meat for this or that reason, but as we go deeper into that space where we become more and more in tune with our higher being, we realize that the “rules” and “confines” of this physical world can be changed or done away with in a single thought.

    I am not trying to change anyone to be anything else that they are not ready for, but I also believe that most of the resistance to change is from old conditioning, thoughts and beliefs we hold in our minds.

    We can make ourselves sick on meat, just like we can make ourselves well. The same goes for vegetables. It all depends what “information packets” or “programs” we choose to hold onto within our minds and which ones we discard.

    In the end our mind controls the outcomes, and until we are willing or able to change not only our conscious, but more importantly our sub-conscious minds, we will feel like there are many valid reasons or things in our way why a certain way of life is the only way.
22. akemi on October 12th, 2009 3:31 pm
    

    Stephen,
    Hmm… during the ice age, Japan was covered with ice, too. It was part of the continent and that is how our ancestors walked up there. Perhaps this explains why I prefer relatively cool weather. I could not do the long summer in Tennessee.

    But then, before the ice age, all humans came from Africa where greens, fruits, and nuts were abundant, didn’t we?

    I read somewhere that human tooth forms are more like those of vegetarian animals than carnivore animals. The length of our intestines are long, too, like vegetarian animals.

    So how long do we need to get use to the new environment? We got used to the ice age cold weather but not the recent warmer weather? Or are we still more like the original primate-like state?

    Not to put down your point, but I think it’s interesting.

    Evita,
    The biology of belief was great. I want to write another post on eating, so bear with me — I want to address that point in the article.
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25. Jen on December 8th, 2009 9:16 am
    

    Hi Akemi!
    I just came back and reread this post. I woke up vegetarian about 6 months ago. I had no plans for it, it just seemed that I stopped choosing meat or fish. This has been very interesting for me because I have suffered from hormone problems my whole post-pubescent life. I had a syndrome that was caused by androgynous hormones floating around my system that my body didn’t know what to do with. It caused me to lose my hair, have horrible acne and raised my appetite.

    Since I’ve been vegetarian (I still eat eggs and dairy) I have been able to get off of all of my prescription medications and I am not experiencing any of the awful side effects of PCOS. It is taking time but I can see it happening slowly but surely!! I have read that the hormones injected into the animals for slaughter will find their way into our bodies. My poor body didn’t know what to do with them. I have also recently switched to organic eggs and milk to do away with any other small levels of hormones sneaking in through those foods.

    It’s simply amazing
26. akemi on December 8th, 2009 3:23 pm
    

    Jen,

    That’s a great news! Thank you for sharing.
    There are lots of nasty stuffs like growth hormones and antibiotics fed to animals that get carried over to us when we eat them. And I’m glad you are switching to organic eggs and dairy because these nasty stuffs get even more concentrated in animal secretion (that is what eggs and milk are).

    In my case, I recently deviated from vegetarian diet and tried meat and fish a few times. I didn’t get sick this time, but I didn’t like them, either. They taste death. So I guess I’m going back to plant-based diet.

    Akemi
27. Jack Christopher on January 22nd, 2010 4:09 pm
    

    Food is hormonal. Yes meat has hormones, but plants food As far I know has hormonal effects too. The most obvious effect is on insulin levels (a hormone) and the hormonal cascade the follows. But also with phytoestrogens. Here are just a few examples of that: http://www.lifemojo.com/lifestyle/foods-with-hormonal-effects-1452569

    On spirituality and diet: I think Wayne Dyer and Abe Hicks eat meat. Andrea Hess might too. And Anna Conlan eats chicken/fish. So I doubt it completely inhibits spirituality. But maybe you could argue that it hurts them from even higher potentials—I doubt it.

    I think alignment with diet is the most important thing. When I look around this universe I can’t deny this fundamental fact: life consumes life. In a way we’re all omnivores. Plant (indirectly) eat us. We eat them. Animal (usually bugs) eat us. We eat them. So on and so on. The difference in modern times is the power balance is dramatically in our favor. Now we can factory farm animals and treat them terribly. But factory farming isn’t the only way to produce food. Whether you eat meat or not, we need to grow our food in a better way.
28. Evita on January 22nd, 2010 5:58 pm
    

    Jack, if I may offer a few words about what you wrote as this is a topic that is very dear to my heart and if I can ever offer some advice or help or perhaps just a new way of looking at this issue, I feel really called to.

    First off, the animal products are hormonal in unnatural ways due to the animals being injected with various hormones to make them grow bigger and fatter. There is nothing natural about this to their bodies or to that of the people who eat them. Plants have natural hormones which do not have the same effect. When we hear about soy being “bad” because of the isoflavones it has so much more to do with how we process it and how much we eat of it. Asian cultures have been eating soy without problems for generations.

    As to the people you mentioned who eat meat….all I would say is this, do you seek to be the leader or the follower? Jesus drank wine apparently, doesn’t mean we have to. We each have to do what is right for us within when it comes to spiritual growth and the evolution of our soul.

    In the end, I simply invite each person to really look deep within and ask themselves what is their highest version of themselves? Is it to continue to keep consuming other life forms, never evolving to a new, higher state of being? Will we continue to justify taking away the life of other beings because that is what is convenient for our taste buds or family traditions? Or will we rise up to a new standard perhaps? These are personal questions and ones that we each need to answer within our hearts.

    If you should so choose, please consider reading the following article. It is by far the best one I have found on the net that shows us a new way of looking at this meat-eater vs vegetarian issue. It is I believe in my heart an example of where humanity is ready to go as our souls evolve to their next levels of existence:
    http://www.humanist.veggroup.org/articles/nature_tells_us_nothing_about_vegetarianism_572
    .-= Evita´s last blog ..4 Conscious Ways To Really Help Others During Any Difficult Situations =-.
29. Jack Christopher on January 22nd, 2010 7:25 pm
    

    I feel the tone came out the wrong way for some reason in my post above. Sorry.
30. akemi on January 22nd, 2010 7:36 pm
    

    Jack and Evita,

    Thank you for your comments. Great discussion.
    My personal view is somewhere in the middle. I don’t believe eating meat /fish is necessarily sinful and against our evolution. If you are interested, I recently started taking fish oil because I think it’s a better source of omega 3. It’s from small fish that are typically eaten by other fish anyway. I even have tried some chicken / fish plates recently — which didn’t make me sick, but I simply didn’t feel good afterwards — how can I say… it sort of tasted death.

    As Evita says, I think we each is up to make our decisions about this, and our decision may change over time, so we want to stay flexible. Don’t choose to eat or quit eating meat because someone does so. And if someone do choose to eat meat, please pray for them before meals and choose good organic, humanely raised animals for your own health as well as for the animals.

    I like Jack’s view of life consumes life. Plants are life forms too. While we are eating, we are eating some forms of life. Perhaps someday we evolve to the point we don’t need to eat…
31. Jack Christopher on January 22nd, 2010 9:14 pm
    

    Hey Evita, thank you for reaching out. I follow your blog. I appreciate you.

    And I agree, artificial growth hormone and antibiotics are bad to consume. But in my comment I was thinking of natural hormones. If you eat animal food you consume their hormones. Cows, for instance, pass estrogen (and IGF-1) in milk. If somebody ate me they’d consume a variety of hormones.

    On soy: Again I agree. Fermentation would change the nutritional content (specifically the isoflavones). Also I agree, soy eating in history has almost always been in small fermented quantities. Soy as a replacement for everything came a couple decades ago. (As an aside, I know of men who eat soy for hair growth, among other reasons. I think phytoestrogens are involved in that.)

    On spirituality: I point out those people because they are the except to the rule I’ve always hear. They prove you can be quite spiritual and eat animal food. But I agree that that’s no reason to follow them. I’m absolutely not arguing anybody *should* eat animal food. And more particularly, you should never eat animal food just because of tradition or because someone high status does.

    On food production: Factory farming and big agriculture are definitely not the way to go. There are better ways to produce both plant and animal food. That said big agra lead to big farma. If we never had an abundance of the feed from corn, soy and wheat, we wouldn’t of had the resources to factory farm animals in the first place. Actually when we started to clear cut and mono-culture the Earth 15,000 years ago it devastated both animal and plant life.

    So where do I think we disagree? I think your saying I making the naturalistic fallacy (with your link): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy — I’m not. I respect your choice to eat a plant food diet. But I disagree if you’re saying that it is inherently more advanced or better for the environment. I also disagree that plant food diets are inherently healthier. Of course I’m open to be convinced otherwise. I know you deeply disagree

    But this is my conscious choice. I still believe all life consumes other life in some way; all beings are “omnivores”. Whether they realizes it or not, all things contribute to the life and death of everything around it.

    But Humans (and some other beings) can choose their diet. Since you believe a plant food diet is best for health, environment, and life in general it doesn’t surprise me you’ll choose that diet—you like it’s consequences. If one day I hold those views, I will convert. But at this time I don’t.

    The argument that plant are OK to sacrifice, but animal aren’t never sat well with my intuition. I think people morally favor animal because they seem closer to us. That’s not a good enough for me. So I ask myself, what do I want for life in general in the universe? I want biodiversity. I want all life forms to thrive and evolve. I embrace the circle of life. I want to eat food, that helps us recreate that dynamic—that balance we used to have on the Earth. So I eat the diet I think supports that cause.
32. Jack Christopher on January 22nd, 2010 9:32 pm
    

    Akemi, you’re right about that vision. One day we’ll have in vitro meat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat (Did you “yuck.”? Everyone does it the first time they heard about it.

    Also one day a technology could develop where we could just swallow a pill to deliver our nutrients. Or maybe we’ll be cyborgs who eat sunlight? Some people claim sungazing already works!

    But I fundamentally agree with both of you. You can only eat what your in alignment with. Since I don’t believe animal foods are inherently unhealthy, unmoral to eat or bad for our ecology; I eat them. I eat both plant and animal foods because I think that’s the best thing I could do for the world.
33. Evita on January 23rd, 2010 3:48 pm
    

    Hi Jack and Akemi

    What a great discussion indeed! It is always interesting to see other people’s perspectives. We all learn together and can be inspired by each other, but in the end of course choose what feels right for us. And thank you Jack for the kind comments.

    I was hesitating to comment some more but I thought I would answer when you wrote the following Jack:
    “But I disagree if you’re saying that it is inherently more advanced or better for the environment. I also disagree that plant food diets are inherently healthier. Of course I’m open to be convinced otherwise. I know you deeply disagree.”

    If we leave spirituality out of it and just look at the environmental and health reasons than yes I disagree but solely on scientific grounds, not on some personal subjective view. I understand that spirituality is subject to personal opinion, so there it is not so much about whether I agree or disagree there as I feel each person is naturally entitled to their own opinion and level of growth, but when it comes to what science has proven today than I am just going based on facts.

    Having said that, when it comes to the environment, today science has proven that animal farms and hence – methane – a very strong greenhouse gas released by them and their wastes has more impact on climate change than transportation! This is something most people are not aware of, but the facts are out there. And I know that we can say, “well let’s just than eat meat from small local farms, but a) it still adds to the problem of environmental degradation in so many ways not just the methane problem and b) today’s world population cannot be fed on small local farms, at least not at the rate that we have been conditioned to eat meat and dairy.

    And as for health, there are numerous books again out there, one of the most popular “The China Study” or the movie I referenced in a comment above (A Delicate Balance) that brings together all the best of science findings to this point in how natural, plant based diets have been shown to be healthier. In fact 90% of naturopathic doctors, will be the first to admit this. We do have enough data today to actually prove this, which were collected especially over the past 3 decades. There are way smaller rates of cancer and heart disease for example in vegetarians. Mainstream media and medicine is still lagging in this fact of course and at times even tries to debunk this as there is a lot of money at stake if the majority of the population went vegetarian or vegan.

    Because I teach this on a formal level inside out (both present and past), I am always open to “teaching” or helping anyone who may be interested in what science knows thus far and how to increase the quality of our lives and be more conscious of the environment too if they seek any help or info of this nature. But I never will impose my will in any way on another.

    So in the end I definitely don’t want to convince anyone of anything. We each get to a point where we are ready to look at other info or not. If you are seeking more answers Jack, honestly they are out there and lots of them. I wasn’t always like this. Just 3 years ago I ate meat and thought nothing of it. It wasn’t until I started to dig and research and immersed myself in this area that I learned what has lead to many of the lifestyle change I made to date (spirituality was a whole other story). And I see the change personally in my own health as further proof.

    Please feel free to let me know if you do have any other questions that I can be of help with, otherwise, thanks again for the great discussion
    .-= Evita´s last blog ..Hope For Haiti – You Can Help =-.
34. Jack Christopher on January 23rd, 2010 6:57 pm
    

    On the ” The China Study”: I believe the book is fundamentally flawed. Specifically the health claims. This is a lot. But look at at least one of these critiques:

    The most through critique – Debates w/ T. Campbell: http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Campbell-Masterjohn.html
35. Jack Christopher on January 23rd, 2010 6:57 pm
    

    I’m glad this discussion didn’t demolish us. This subject is a stick of dynamite. I appreciate how cool and conscious everyone’s handled it. As long as Akemi is cool with it, and we feel like pursuing discussion, I’m willing to continue it.

    So I agree. Once we started big agriculture it ballooned the food supply (animal & plant). Then the population number fattened, and resource consumption hit the sky. That’s fundamentally unsustainable. But I think it was agriculture (eating more plant food) that let us balloon populations when we started it 15,000 years ago.

    I can’t sum all of my view here. But this book closely sums the eco/environmental. I don’t agree with it all, but this was written by a woman who ate plant foods only, for 20 years: “The Vegetarian Myth”. Title may sound divisive, but it make for a fair critique in many ways. Here’s a fair review from a green site: http://www.greenlivingtips.com/blogs/398/The-Vegetarian-Myth.html

    The book: http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Myth-Food-Justice-Sustainability/dp/1604860804

    Samples of the book: http://books.google.com/books?id=_KGWcPH41qYC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false

    …continued
36. Jack Christopher on January 23rd, 2010 6:59 pm
    

    (Had to split my comments. I link overloaded the comment system. I had several more.)

    In our overall visions about health, environment, ecology and spirituality we seem to disagree. Although I think we probably agree more than we actually disagree. But I think instead of comparing overviews, it’s better to review specific claims. That’s a debate. But I don’t like or want to debate. I’m merely posting all this to raise awareness to (the overview) of alternative points of view.
37. akemi on January 24th, 2010 11:52 am
    

    I love this discussion! I’m learning a lot myself. Generally speaking, I encourage discussion among commenters as long as it is relevant to the original post. In this case, it definitely is.

    I guess there are three points in meat eaters vs vegetarian discussion.
    1. Health
    2. Environment
    3. Moral / spirituality

    Because I am not a scientist, I am on the learning side regarding 1 and 2.
    Regarding point 3, my view is love, acceptance and forgiveness is more helpful in our evolution than judgements and righteousness. And we want to be free of dogmatic approach.

    Sure, killing is no good. I don’t encourage killing of any kind. But it’s also true we live on other lives as long as we eat anything. I choose to eat vegetarian because I feel too sensitive when I eat meat (I can almost feel the trauma of the animal), but that is just my personal choice. I’m sorry if I sounded partial to vegetarianism in this post. In my follow-up posts (such as the one I just linked), I am clearer on this point of personal freedom and choice.

    Again, thank you to both Jack and Evita for providing so much information here.

    Akemi
38. akemi on January 24th, 2010 12:01 pm
    

    Oh, I forgot to mention –

    I agree with Jack that agriculture (raising plant foods) did significant damage to Earth both by the act of agriculture itself (growing only certain plants is very much against natural ecosystem) and by increasing the human population so much. And before agriculture started, humans probably ate a lot of meat. All the indigenous people in the world eat a lot of meat. The difference between them and us, among the many, is that they appreciate the animals for providing sustenance. They see themselves as part of ecosystem, not above the ecosystem.

    For this reason, if someone chooses to eat meat, I recommend eating the whole animal. Eating only a part of animal and throwing away “less desirable” parts is disrespectful to the animal who made the ultimate sacrifice. Ideally, kill the animal yourself. I believe the old-time farmers who grew both plants and animals did this. They slaughtered the animals they tended and cared for. If killing must happen, this is the best way, I think.

    The Vegan Myth book review Jack linked is very good. I didn’t know we need some form of animal products to grow plants.
39. Jack Christopher on January 24th, 2010 1:36 pm
    

    Akemi,
    On my health views: It’s obvious that mostly plant-food diets can be healthy. But I’m suspicious of long-term plant food *only* diets. Actually, I’m undecided about animal food only diets effect on longevity too.

    It’s worth noting Neanderthals, one of our closest relatives, ate almost entirely meat. Scientist study species diet by bone isotopes: http://www.pnas.org/content/97/13/7663.full Current view is we out competed them for resources i.e. food. They ate fat, large game animals. So I believe humans ate meat—lots of it. I think most people are skeptical of this because they believe meat causes ills inherently. But actually it’s a problem of modern meat. I can go into more detail if anybody wants. I do several more controversial views. But I can support them.

    (I want to respond to your second comment too.)
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41. Andrew on January 31st, 2010 5:10 pm
    

    I used to have a bit of a judgement of meat-eaters… and before that I judged vegans It’s all silly. I had to take a step back and try to adjust my approach. Veganism is more spiritual than meat-eating… according to certain, subjective definitions of “spiritual”, and not in all situations, I mean just as an imperfect way of avoiding some of the suffering that goes on in this dark world. A lightworker should look for creative ways to impact the world, not just to reduce harm — there is only so far you can go with that approach. I don’t give up honey, for instance, I don’t feel like going so far. If I can inspire 10 people to change their lives I have made a bigger change than being excessively considerate to bees.

    Love

    Andrew
42. Andrew on January 31st, 2010 5:10 pm
    

    PS I tweeted the quote about the land to grow meat ending world hunger – good one, thanks
    .-= Andrew´s last blog ..Beyond proper etiquette: How to respond to thanks =-.
43. akemi on February 1st, 2010 10:28 am
    

    Andrew,

    “A lightworker should look for creative ways to impact the world, not just to reduce harm — there is only so far you can go with that approach.” I LOVE this! Very true.
44. brandy on March 30th, 2010 3:41 pm
    

    interesting comments / views /thoughts/ ect.
    i must say that i am not as well spoken, researched or thought out as most posts. forgive me just speaking my mind /heart.
    for me, meat eating is simple. i eat another life for a few minutes of pleasure. the animal dies in pain, sacrificing it’s life for that few moments. moments i might not even be aware of what i am eating….
    or i can eat plant based, feel good about how i digest the food, good about my choice, and yes, spiritualy i feel good to.
    i agree, we can’t objectivly say what is spiritual or not. BUT when one is doing what one knows is right, wether it is food, money, shopping, whatever, one feels better and more in ‘tune’ with whatever they hold as an ideal.

    I don’t honestly think there is a valid argument for meat eating. that is my thought, which i don’t have a bunch of data to back up, just how i feel.

    spiritually, it does seem to me that across the globe and time, not eating meat, even for just a short time, is seen as aliging oneself with the ‘god’ of that system. i do wonder what truth that holds for us. and in the past some cultures were very much aware of the sacrifice the animal made for them.

    my biggest reason for not eating meat?
    no animal, not us, not a cow, not a chicken says, yah, i am willing to die, have my children die, my parents die perhaps my whole family die, for you, for any reason. and most certainly not because you like the taste of meat.
    and i am anemic, and have been for a long time. eating meat has never helped.
    i have more energy NOT eating meat.

    just my thoughts.
    thank you all for the conversation, for thinking, for taking time to question. i hope your journey takes you places above what you have ever dreamed possible.
    BT
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